As site owners, we’ve all heard it.
E-A-T (Expertise, Authority, Trustworthiness) are important ranking factors.
But we don’t often hear the actionable steps we need to take as site owners to cover our bases.
That’s where Kyle Roof comes to the rescue.
Kyle is a long-time SEO expert. Besides running many successful businesses in the space, he’s also known for running hundreds of tests on Google’s algorithm over the years to see what actually works.
Today he makes his third appearance on the Niche Pursuits podcast to discuss his latest findings on E-A-T!
He shares some really helpful advice, including:
- His 2 ‘secret weapons’ you can easily implement on your sites
- The 4 things your site needs as a minimum for E-A-T
- What you can do to level up in your niche without relying on link building
- Dispelling some of the commonly held myths about E-A-T
- And much more…
You’ll definitely want to grab a pen and paper for this one!
Topics Kyle Roof Covers
- E-A-T signals
- Similarities among affiliate sites that get hit by updates
- The most important trust signals
- Why your site needs to be a real business
- What pages your site needs
- 2 important aspects of trustworthiness
- HTML Sitemaps
- What matters for expertise
- Author schema and social signals
- The costs involved with running an affiliate site today
- Authority and the topical authority of a site
- The importance of supporting pages
- How to know what topics to include to fill out different silos on your site
- Ranking = authority?
- Finding the sweet spot to keep your silos focused and on-topic
- POP’s E-A-T scoring system
- How to analyze competitors to see what E-A-T factors matter most in your niche
- The importance of impressions
- And a whole lot more…
Links & Resources
Sponsored by: Link Whisper
Watch the Interview
Read the Transcription
Jared: All right, welcome back to the Niche Pursuits podcast. My name is Jared Bauman. Today we are joined by Kyle Roof. Kyle, welcome back.
Kyle: Thanks for having me. I’m happy to be back.
Jared: You know, I should have looked it up before we got started, but I know for a fact this is at least your third visit with us here.
I, you might even have been on four times. You’re given a good go for the number one the, the most frequented podcast guest we have. Like I said, I should have looked it up before we got on.
Kyle: I want like a smoking jacket or something. Like I could .
Jared: We’ll have to talk Spencer into shipping you out. A good, a good smoking jacket for for maybe like a Letterman jacket.
We can like stamp the number of times you’ve been on it, you know,
Kyle: with the dates
Jared: or whatever on the side. Yeah, the date there. Go each year or something. So well welcome back. Recently.
Kyle: I could just get a tattooed as well. .
Jared: That’d be quicker. That’d be quicker. No, welcome back. It’s, it’s always a good time when you’re on Always so much that we learn and you know, I will include in the show notes, links to your past interviews there.
Great. Listens. I listened to the one that we did last time about a year ago in preparation for today. So still relevant and so a really great walkthrough on page seo. But before we get into today’s topic and what we’re doing today, maybe just catch us up, give us some back speed. We do have a bunch of new listeners since the last time you, you were on, so, you know, give us a little a little 80 20 in your life.
Kyle: Sure, sure. So I’m a co-founder of High Voltage seo, which is a a local national to international SEO agency. We have offices in Phoenix, in Berlin and Melbourne. I am the co-creator of Page Optimizer Pro, which is an OnPage SEO tool. A lot of exciting new things going on at Pop . And then and that’s about as pitches are gonna get outta me.
And then internet marketing Gold img, that’s where I have courses. And we have about 40 other courses from other instructors. And then that’s where we do some tests on Google’s algorithm. And I do about a test a month and we do quarterly reviews. So the quarterly reviews actually coming up in a couple weeks.
But it’s kind of a place where you can really learn how to do SEOs kind of idea, like see what’s going on with, with the test, and then get a framework for how to apply that with the courses so you can. Get some knowledge and then actually do some real seo.
Jared: I remarked last time, and I’m still blown away by how many courses you have in there or how many educational bits and videos and I mean, it’s just it’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s really in depth for how long it’s been around.
It hasn’t been out fat log compared to how much you have in there.
Kyle: You know, we’ve gone through a couple iterations. Initially it was just tests and kind of a community and, and I can tell you that people like the tests, but it’s often very hard to get something that is extremely actionable.
It’s just like, oh, that’s cool. Or like, oh yeah, I might use that. Or it might be something like, but it’s not anything that becomes a, a comprehensive strategy for for seo. And so that’s when we really made a switch to, we’re more of a courses platform because we want people to be able to get the instruction
Jared: and learn, do so
Kyle: with it.
Yeah. Yeah. Cause ultimately it doesn’t matter if you know something super secret and cool, it really matters if you can get a page up and get it to rank and and, and get people to do what you need ’em to do once they’re there, you know?
Jared: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that makes sense. Yeah. Sometimes those tests, they’re such a cool buzzworthy result, but maybe fall short for the, for, for most people on how to put that into play in their, on their website or their SEO work.
Kyle: It’s also like, how do the all, how do all these tests string together too? You know, like, if I have this information, how do I put it together? But really the idea is that you can get a framework out of the courses depending on what kind of SEO you’re doing. And then when you learn something new for a test, you probably, once you have that framework, you probably have a way to plug it in, is and that’s how I approach it.
I’ve got my framework, I got, I’ve got how I do seo, and then when I learn something new, I know where I can plug that into my formula. Right.
Jared: Hmm. Well, we could, we could talk about that for days. I feel like , let’s, let’s segue into the today’s conversation. So you and I were going back and forth talking about basically a topic that is talked about a lot.
And because perhaps there’s a lot of misinformation about it or vague information about it, it doesn’t necessarily have a lot of clarity, especially for the type of marketer that, that’s probably listening to this podcast, internet marketers who are doing content sites, affiliate websites, and that topic, I tried to drag that out as long as I possibly could.
that topic is e a t off referred to in, in, in these circles. And I’m so excited to dive into e a t with you today. And I guess maybe somewhat of the framework I’m personally interested in talking about, certainly as, as it relates to these frequent onslaughts of Google updates that are happening and the varied mixture of updates that are happening.
So you know, we’ll, obviously we’ve got a great agenda in front of us, but let me turn it over to you to kind of get us going on this topic and, and, and, and start us off with, with, with what you wanna start with. Sure.
Kyle: I think an important point is that Google is increasingly. More hostile towards affiliate sites, and, and I, I don’t think it’s, it’s necessarily because they’re affiliate sites, it’s because honestly they lack eat signals.
Most affiliate sites do. And the perspective that I’m coming at with is in the agency we do like a recovery audit. And so we’ve taken a lot of time looking at sites that have been hit by what appears to be one of the, the e updates. And, and while we don’t have a perfect recovery rate, we do have a pretty decent recovery rate.
And a lot of that is actually getting e signals on, on the page. I also come at this from the perspective of, we actually have an e tool in page Optimizer Pro. So I’ve spent a lot of time looking at potential signals, which ones likely are the ones that Google’s looking at. And and kind of then working through the rationale why these things are important or why you should have on page.
That’s kind of the background of where I’m coming from. I, I spend a lot of time on. Looking at it, thinking about it, working with it, and then trying to help sites either prevent getting slapped or helping some sites recover that have been slapped. So, and that’s,
Jared: I’ve said a lot of, I’m glad you brought it up because I don’t know if you’re gonna split it in, in terms of what we talk about today, but man I, I, you hit the nail on the head, like there almost feels like there’s two sides of it.
There’s the e a t, the E, you need to grow your site and, and almost keep it from getting hit , right? And then there’s, oh my goodness, you know, my site has gotten hit. Now how do I approach eat? And how do I get eat on the site to recover the site? I don’t know if they’re the same, I don’t know if they have all the same signals or if you have to do things in varying frequencies, but I’d love to hear a little bit
Kyle: on that too.
You know, I would mention that it’s never one thing. Some people are like, well, I’ve got a current copyright. You know, it’s not just ticking one box. I imagine that it’s ticking enough of the boxes. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. know is really what it kind of comes down to. If you, you must tick enough of the boxes and you can probably get away with not having one and having one another, one or two of something else.
You know? So there is kind of that aspect to it. But I would say that nearly every affiliate site that I see that gets hit has zero, eat like absolutely no signals whatsoever. Mm-hmm. and like what, you know, so it’s almost like the same thing. The thing that would prevent you from getting hit is what you just need to do to recover because you just have to get these signals
Jared: on your site.
A bit of one and the same. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and not to oversimplify, but you know, if you’re new to SEO or you’re brand new at listening to this, you might have heard the acronym. It stands for expertise, authoritativeness Trustworthiness. They each have their own significances. They have been kind of buried and laced within the Google Quality Radar guidelines, which isn’t a playbook for the algorithm, but it’s a playbook they give people who work for Google who review in real life the way the algorithm is kind of supposed to look.
I hope I didn’t over summarize it, but let’s let’s, let’s ta which one of those you wanna hit first? Which one? The E, the A or the t .
Kyle: Start with the T. Let’s start with trust. I think that’s the most tangible and the easiest to understand. So trust, really, I think what it comes down to is who’s responsible for this content?
You know, Google, and, and it’s an important point because we do pull a lot of this from the quality rate guidelines, which would be a human doing something. But you have to keep in mind that this is an algorithm. This is a bot coming to the site. So it has to be obvious for a bot what these signals are.
The, A bot has to be able to find these signals. If then it cannot, then you’re not going to get credit for them. And this is a misconception a lot of people have where like when the first round of, of medic happened and a lot of legitimate sites got hit, and you as a human can go to the site and be like, oh, this is clearly a real site.
You know, that’s clearly a real doctor. This is clearly good information. But if a bot can’t figure that out, it doesn’t care how it looks. You know, it needs to be able to crawl the site and find very specific things. And so when you think about from the concept of who’s responsible, this concept content, if somebody reads this content and they follow the instructions and they are harmed, what can they do?
Who can they contact? Or let’s say they buy something and it’s not the right product. How do they get a refund Or they buy something and it’s defective or damaged? How do they get their money back? And then, so the real big first step is that, is this a real. And you have to be able to establish that this website is owned by a real business.
And so on your site, you should have a local address and a local phone number. Those two things are massive. And I know a lot of affiliates like, but I don’t want to dig, you know, it’s like, well, that’s the words outta my mouth, . You know, that, that is the absolute point of the whole thing is that if you should be a real business, you know, and if you’re taking money from this site that you should have a business, you should have a business license.
And one of the big things that a legitimate business can do is put its address now. You don’t have to put your home address. You can get a mailing address. You can get an address nearby that is your, your registered business address and you can get a local phone number and that, that, those things take a couple.
And they do cost a little bit a month. But again, that’s such a low bar for Google to be able to crawl and say like, okay, this is probably legitimate because they’ve got an address here. I can actually see their g like their Google map, their, their real place. And there’s a local phone number that corresponds with this address.
It’s a very simple step to see, is anybody actually responsible for this content? Okay. Can
Jared: I ask you a couple of probably way in the weeds questions, but they’re ones I, I have all the time. So like, okay. Where I am, you can go get a post address like from a post Atlantic you know, like a FedEx store.
You can like rent a little mailbox there. But I’ve gotta imagine there’s 200 other people using that address for their, maybe their business is, is that okay? And can Google see it to post Atlantic? And are they okay with that? Is that a trust signal or is that just not achieving it?
Kyle: As long as you have a unique address, so you know your Suite 1 0 2 and somebody, nobody else’s Suite 1 0 2 and you have the local phone number.
That’s, that’s the key. A lot of people might have like that, that address, but they don’t actually have a, a local phone number. So the, you can have, think about a, an office complex. It has a lot of real businesses in there. They all have very similar addresses, but they all have a unique suite number and they all have a unique phone number.
And so you can just think of your mailbox, et cetera type place that would give you that address. It, it’s the same thing. It’s really, that’s just the modern office complex at this point.
Jared: Second question on that note, if I have several websites and I own them all, maybe in a company or, you know, I work at a home and I have a home address, can I blend these, can several websites use the same address?
Because, you know, for, for that reason or so,
Kyle: Again, multiple companies can use the same address. If, if I were you, I would try to get a, a unique suite number so that there is a, a, a uniqueness there. But then also, if you can’t do that, definitely have a unique phone number because a different business would have a different phone number.
Right. Okay. So, and I realize the
Jared: phone number, the phone number’s the key, the phone number’s the key. Okay. You’ve made that clear . Okay, good. Okay, sorry. And you know, we’ve heard it before, but you know, I think the way that you say it is really, I think I wanna repeat it just because it really made sense to me.
Like, even if you’re just a content website and you think, well, people can’t order products from you, or if I’m an affiliate website, I’m not actually the one who makes the products, I just recommend the products. But you’re right. If somebody follows your advice, how can they get in touch with you if they need to, if something happens?
That’s a really good way to frame it for specifically affiliate websites who might think, well, I don’t actually make a product, so I don’t think that really applies.
Kyle: Yeah. And, but it just applies because you have to be a business. You know, you are in the, in the business of making money and, and people need to know how to contact you if they need to get ahold of you.
To the same, in that same vein, you should have multiple email addresses. How many affiliate sites have you seen that just have some blank generic contact form? You click contact us, and then the laus looking out of focus con, you know, contact us, little box pops up. You know, that’s going straight to nowhere.
Mm-hmm. Real companies have multiple departments. You know, they’ve got a refunds department, they’ve got a complaints department, they’ve got general inquiries, they’ve got media inquiries. You should have multiple email addresses on your site for those different departments. The more you can do, the more legitimate you are.
Now they can all funnel to one email address. They can all funnel to an app type thing so that you can keep that organized. But there should be different departments for different things that people might need to contact you. So the more you can show that, hey, we’ve got these different departments or these different things, the better it is for you.
Jared: Interesting. Okay. And you, you obviously have to showcase that on the site somewhere, because to your point, the, the bot has to be able to crawl that and see it and
Kyle: understand it. So like, I would put like my address and my phone number and my footer. I would also put it on the contact contact us page.
This is our, our, our business address. And then there you can put all of your emails as well.
Jared: Okay. Okay. These are all under
Kyle: the trust banner. That’s right. And then kind of within this section as well, I would have an about the company page, like an about us page. And I’d have an about the team page where you’re showing that they’re you’re, you have a company and you’re describing your company’s journey, and you’ve got a page where you’re describing who’s, who’s actually the team.
The team could just be one person, and that’s okay. Mm-hmm. . But I would have a page where I say about, Or about the team. And that’s something that’s really easy for a bot to crawl and to see that you’ve taken the time to put that on there. So it’s not necessarily anything you need on the page beyond that, but just that link is a very easy thing to crawl to see that there is structure to this company.
Jared: the different things that I would wanna include on the, about the company page versus what I would want to include on the, about the team pages? About the team. Maybe more personal information or does that kind of get about the expertise piece
Kyle: a bit? The humans that are in, in the company would be about the team and then the company, the about the company pages is like about when the company was founded.
What its purpose is, what its core values are, that kind of stuff. And to be honest with you, it doesn’t really matter what is on these things. I’m actually more interested in that. The link is crawlable. Yeah. And these are indexed page. It’s a page that’s indexed and, and that link clearly says like, about us, about the team, about the company.
Like something like that within the link. And that’s very easy for a bot to crawl. Okay.
Jared: I’ll probably ask you a few more questions about that, about the team page maybe a little bit later. Cause I know you’re gonna get into some of the expertise topics and
Kyle: stuff. Yeah, for sure. So that’s kind of like in the trust category.
I think the trust category kind has two sections. You’ve got, you know, is this a real business? And then the next section would be, is this a real website? And these are pretty straightforward. You, you need something, you need a current copyright, you need the little C on there and you need, you need the current date.
But they, I would make sure that they’re indexed pages. There are pages that, and it says what it is in the link to that page. I think that’s all you need to do. Okay. You wanna make sure you’ve got cookie or GDPR notices on the site. If you’re in local, in the us especially in California, you wanna make sure you’re ADA compliant.
I think those are all signals. And then some of the things that just kind of go into regular technical seo that a real website would do would be, you know, you, you’ve obviously got your SSL going, your mobile friendly limited 4 0 4 s, limited broken links, no 500 s those types of things. I think a cumulatively send, send a signal that somebody’s caring for this website, that it’s a real website, and, and, and the website is being maintained.
Jared: Our site maps at all important in this conversation.
Kyle: Totally. So that’s actually one of the things that I would definitely always do is, is not just your XML site map, but an HTML site map. Oh, okay. H an HTML site map is, is a, a, a tree, if you will, of links on. They go into your site. And the reason you wanna do that is that the number one way that Google likes to find a page is to click a link and, and go to it.
And that can be a link on your site. It doesn’t have to be an external link. And so you wanna give Google the opportunity to get into your site to see all of your pages, especially these pages that we’re talking about in terms of eight factors. But I want Google to get into like all my supporting pages, and those might be kind of deep in my site.
I want Google to get to all my hub pages or, and then all my money pages. And so, yeah. An HTML site map is, is a big part of this.
Jared: Most SEO plugins will generate an XML site map for you, very easily. Submit that through Google Search Console. What’s the process? What do you recommend for HTML
Kyle: site maps?
So a lot of those plugins that do those XMLs will also do an HTML one 40, so it’ll automatically update. Okay. So something just easy like that is totally fine. Easy. So it’s
Jared: easier than it. Okay, good. Easy,
Kyle: easy, easy. And, We ran a test in IMG years back and somebody had a thousand links on a page and Google crawled them all and indexed all the pages where Google can get through a lot on those.
You know what’s kind of fun too is it didn’t go in order. Like it didn’t start with like one and just work its way down to a thousand. It did like 10 here, three over here, five, six. Is that it was actually pretty,
Jared: is that cause it was crawling and then while it got to a page, it found other links and kind of just started going down that path you think?
I mean, I don’t know. That’s a great
Kyle: question. That’s interesting. No, no, no. Cause you know, they were all orphan pages, so that was Oh,
Jared: they were all orphans. Oh, okay. Oh, that’s really interesting. Then.
Kyle: To prove that like the they are going and then that page is being indexed from that from that. So there’s no interlinking between them.
Jared: geez, that is fascinating. It was just like
Kyle: a, a scattershot across the pa, but eventually they all got a crawled
Jared: in index. So it sounds like even Google can fall victim to shiny object syndrome. .
Kyle: Google has my form of a d d . I just bounce around the page, kind of work my way around.
Jared: Sounds like how I would probably go through the site map.
Kyle: seems logical
Jared: to me. Okay. Okay. I cut you off on the site map conversation you were talking about.
Kyle: No, no, no. That that was, that was about it. That, that’s, that’s what you want. It’s huge for indexing. It’s huge for Google getting in and, you know, you’re building all these pages to show, you know, that you should be in the ses.
You know that you are, you satisfy eat. And so having that a map is a, is a real excellent secret weapon. In order to. You are protecting your site.
Jared: There is a lot of question marks around we’ll call everything, we’ll call it everything that falls under, like the site audit, right? The technical side of things and how important that is for e a t.
Obviously, it’s important to not have a ton of 4 0 4 pages, you know, although some aren’t terrible. It’s important to, you know have a lot of those technical components set up. You don’t want redirect chains, you don’t want all that stuff. But from a broad perspective, it seems that it, the, from what you went over, those are pretty much the basics, right?
Like that’s not really a technical in-depth journey
Kyle: a website. No, no, no. I would just make sure they’re like, you don’t have an, an inordinate amount of every site has four Oh. Pretty much, but just that you don’t have like a ton of them or, and you don’t have a ton of broken links. As soon as Google’s hitting broken links, I think it’s gonna start flagging like nobody’s taking care of this website.
Yeah. And there’s no reason for it to be in the service, especially n 500 errors. Those are service side errors. You definitely don’t want those. You get enough of those. Google will start removing your pages and rightfully so. Yeah.
Jared: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Man, is that all for, for trust? You know, yeah.
Kyle: that’s the trust section. That’s the meet material. That’s it on expertise. I think expertise is the least understood concept of, of all of this. And really it’s like, do you need an expert? Do you need a doctor? Do you need a PhD? Yes. Do you need somebody with all this experience on, on your site?
And, and the answer is no. Google, and it’s, I think it’s important to understand that Google isn’t doing value judgements. People want to believe that Google is, but Google listen cuz think about what’s a better degree. Stanford or Yale, both sound
Jared: great to me, frankly, but I know exactly they’re both probably unbelievable degrees cuz they’re
Kyle: excellent schools, you know, like, but so like, if you like, well we’ve got this doctor and they got their degree from Stanford, but this one over here got their degree in from m i t.
Well like that, that’s not anything that Google’s doing. Or what if somebody’s just been in the field for 30 years and they have no degrees, right. You know, are, are, are they more or less valuable in terms of expertise than somebody that might be in their first year right out of, of, of school, but with an excellent degree?
So Google isn’t gonna make that value judgment. What you really need here is a real person and that’s it. And you need to, you need to establish that the people that are writing this content are real. And that’s where the expertise comes in. It’s that this is a person that is taking responsibility for this content and this is a real person.
And that’s, that’s really what the expertise comes down to. And so what, what you need are author pages. Author bio pages. And then on all of your articles, you’re putting auth author, schema citing back to those author, author bio pages. So this is separate from the meet the team page, like the meet the team page.
Actually, when you click on that team member, it might go to their author bio page. Yep, that’s totally fine. And in there you need to establish as much as you can, like a LinkedIn maybe a Facebook Twitter handle, stuff like that. If they’ve got, it’s easy to put stuff into Google Books, you know, anything that somebody’s published and you can get links out to that.
So you’re kind of saying like, this is a real person. They’ve done real things. But it doesn’t have to be somebody with these amazing credentials and that’s the only way to get past the expertise. It just has to be a real person.
Jared: Okay. So many questions on this already. Number one personas are out, you know, especially for affiliate websites.
That’s pretty clear from what it sounds like, from what you’re saying, common practice. I know a lot of, I know a lot of people,
Kyle: I know a lot of people that can establish a fake LinkedIn and establish a real that, so I mean, essentially they are making a real person, but. I
Jared: would try to, yeah, fake personas I guess.
Meaning that nothing is being done to establish it. It’s just a person with a headshot that’s made up. So that’s not good for e A t. And people know that’s not good for a E A T, but you kind of went into why. So maybe let’s unpack that a bit. You said author page, author schema, and then let’s get some social profiles to support them.
Let’s talk about those social profiles. What about someone who is active in their space and is an expert, right? Like if you were talking to them about it, they would come across as an expert. They have knowledge, they have history, but they don’t have LinkedIn. And even if they did have LinkedIn, it didn’t support any of the things they were doing because it’s really something that the else, they have their LinkedIn about, right?
Like these scenarios.
Kyle: But you’re not looking to establish that they’re an expert through LinkedIn. You’re looking to establish that they’re a human, that they’re a real person. Yeah, that, that’s, that’s the main component, that this is an actual person. So if their LinkedIn doesn’t really support what they’re doing, that’s fine.
If they have links to pages that are certifications or scholarly papers they’ve written, definitely put those in as well. But again, you’re not trying to establish that they are the expert, you’re just trying to establish that they’re real. Perfect.
Jared: Okay. Good. Clarity. Author schema. That’s a fun one.
I think most affiliates are probably using schema or structured data markup on their pages. Maybe how to Schema f FAQ schema is pretty popular. But I, I wonder how many are using author schema. Is that, is that, are you seeing that commonly out there, or is that a big mistake that a lot, I can tell
Kyle: you that people are not
I can tell you that people are not. But they should. They should. Because really what you wanna say is like, this article is written by this person who is a real person. Here’s their bio page on. And that that’s what you’re referencing within, within the, the structured data as you’re saying this real person Bill.
And you can read about Bill over here and you can go to social profiles and stuff like that to just make that connection that this is an actual person that’s written this stuff. Okay.
Jared: And I also, I love the, the distinction cuz it, it can be really confusing. So you were saying make sure that you link and correct me if I’m saying this wrong, if I’m rehashing, but it’s an important distinction cuz author page is, I mean think WordPress, it’s like the native taxonomy that WordPress offers, offers you as a author that’s not linking back to the about team page cuz that’s not their actual author page.
Kyle: Correct. So you wanna link to their personal, like this is their bio page however you wanna set that up. This is totally fine. The. Usually like about the team page, we’ll probably list who your authors are and you know, you can click from that page and go to their bio page. That’s, that’s totally fine.
And you can even link back to the About Us page you know about the team page too from that author bio page if you’d like. But the important point is that page exists that is about that particular author and then in the schema and the articles that they are writing Yeah. That you are referencing that page
Jared: so the bot can connect it all.
And the reason I’m asking some super detailed questions, , which forgive me. Oh no. Can super into the weeds, but man, I’ll tell you, it’s so helpful to listen to one of these and, you know, you hear about author schema and you actually hear a lot of the dots connected too. So it’s, you know, for example. But yeah, it’s really great to have you going into depth on it.
Kyle: Oh, no, no, these are not in the weeds at all. I think these are really important things and, and I can’t stress enough. I, I have seen people that have like, well, we have author pages, or we have this, we have that, you know, it’s, and in the end of the day, some people do get swept up, you know, that’s just the unfortunate thing on this.
But I can say, The majority of the time people are barely touching on any of these things. I was gonna say, and I can tell you why, I can tell you why they suck to do . They’re boring. They’re, so, it’s the worst part of it. It’s the worst part. And it costs a little money cuz now I have to go do this and I have to pay them $50 a month and I have to pay that $10 a month.
You know, my affiliate site’s only making $70 a month, so you telling me I gotta pay like, you know, $80 to make this happen, you know? Yeah. You know, that’s, that’s, that’s the new world we live in. Viable business. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I know it sucks, . Fair enough. Believe me. Fair.
Jared: Believe me. Fair enough. May, this is a bit off topic, but maybe a good time to ask it.
Is there a right time to do this? Do you need to do it outta the gate? You do need to do it outta the gate. So first post goes live, get going on this
Kyle: too. Yeah. The long you wait, the, I think the less likely we are to actually do it and then you’re thinking like, oh my God, I gotta back through all these pages.
So you know, just like. Most states in the US allow you to operate for like somewhere between 30 and 90 days before you have to have a business license. So you gotta figure it’s, you know, I would, I would use that as, as, as my guideline for when I wanna get these things on. Because again, you need to be legitimate.
You need to be real. And the unfortunate things, a lot of affiliate sites are trying not to be legitimate . They’re like intentionally trying not to be real. And you can see why then they’re getting swept up in in these updates.
Jared: Yeah. Okay. So we’re, you know, we’re, we’re deep in on expertise and your big point was real person less about how much of an expert they are, more about how much of a real person they are.
carry, carry on. Let me, let me stop
Kyle: you. That, that kind of covers expertise cuz that’s really what it boils down to is, is, is a real person that that’s it. That’s really all you need to do. The next part would be authority Authoritativeness and I, I’ve heard people say like, aha, well this is where I need an expert, you know, because I need the authority and it’s not.
In this case, the, the term is not in a person, it’s in the site. Mm, mm-hmm. . And it’s really the idea here is topical authority. Have you answered all the questions? You know, have you covered the breadth of what this topic is? And it’s not just answering a lot of questions as well. It’s ranking for a lot of those question terms or ranking for a lot of those concepts.
So the more you are ranking for, the better you will be when these updates come along, and especially ranking for these particular topic terms. So what I like to do in this situation is I like to create supporting pages for my target page. And, and an easy way to do it is to look at people also ask to have questions.
Mm-hmm. questions that don’t quite work on maybe your target page, on your money page. But they’re still within the realm and they’re really just still within the realm of the site in general. And then I think in my last time I was on, we talked about natural tier. This is what I use this for is I, I try to find terms that are within my natural tier.
So basically I can launch them and just put the question in the title tag and in the H one and answer the question, and it’s gonna rank on its own without any seo. Cuz I launched something that was in, within my tier. So I’m trying to boost kind of the natural strength of the site with this content. At the same time, I’m really protecting myself from each situations because I’m now answering a lot of questions or I’m providing a lot of value, a lot of information about the particular topic.
Jared: So let me ask you about that, cuz that’s going down the per a perfect path. I just ran into the situation actually with the client at my agency a week or two ago and it’s about this concept of in order to gain topical authority, do you write articles about, so something inside that topic that, you know, you won’t be able to rank for i e it would be outside of your natural tier, but seemingly essential to building out the topic as a complete hub on your page, really on your site.
Kyle: especially if you see all the competitors doing it. I would do it. You know, that’s one of the things where you can take the top three, top five competitors that are always ranking pretty well and then if they all have the same page, even if it’s outta your league, that’s probably a good page to have on
Jared: your site.
Right? It. And don’t worry if you don’t rank for it, it doesn’t mean that it’s, you know, you should delete it down the road, write it cuz it helps your topical authority. But don’t get too crazy with that. Don’t do too
Kyle: many of those. I would just do a handful of those to be honest with you. I do the ones that are glaring, like, okay, these are obviously.
This is important to the topic, and then I, then I would get that on there. But for the rest of ’em, I’d really make an effort to publish within my tier. And a tier is, is something if you like, avalanche theory, which I do mm-hmm. , and then that’s a go a builder society and it’s called SEO with no Resources and read that article.
And that’s a great foundation for what we’re talking about. I think you do need to expand beyond that to make it a complete system, but it is fantastic writing and what I found is in our agency, we were doing this, but we just didn’t have the right terms for it. And then once we had the right terms for it, then we could really take it and, and explode it.
And I, I, I recommend doing that, but it’s also not just for getting the clicks and impressions, but I really do think it’s gonna help you with these e signals as well, because you’re gonna start ranking for topical terms.
Jared: I think you bring up a good, that authority from that authority. That’s what I wanted to maybe ask you a second time.
I, I heard you say it’s not just about writing it, it’s about ranking it. You have to rank it. And I think that that’s new to me, but it makes total sense. I haven’t really thought about it that way, but I think sometimes maybe we get caught up in, well I wrote all the, you know, I wrote the five informational posts about this topic.
What? Come on. Google. Like I wrote, I built out the silo. But you actually need to rank it in order for it to help you, at least with the authority. Is that what you’re saying?
Kyle: For sure. And let’s say you’re having trouble figuring out like what your tier is. Go to zero search zero volume search. Those are your friends,
Start publishing on those cuz you’re gonna range from them quickly and it turns out they don’t have zero volume. Yes. Go figure. And it’s likely that your competitors are just gonna ignore them anyway. So this is a real opportunity to get stuff on. I would also be very careful about, you don’t need to do.
Like very close iterations of, of the exact same thing. You don’t wanna really start cannibalizing yourself. I I I don’t think that’s as big a problem as people think it is, but you don’t have to be specifically like right on whatever your target keyword is. It just has to be kind of generally around the topic.
Jared: Yeah. Cuz those PAs can get very similar if you let yourself get too far in the weeds. So
Kyle: don’t, don’t do that , don’t just do like one, you know, blue sweaters, green sweaters, yellow sweater. Like that’s, that’s not really one what you wanna do. I would say though, I have, I did see one that went a little too far afield and a friend of mine gave an example that I, I think is on point.
The idea is that you’ve gotta cite about apple pie. So you have an article about an apple pie recipe and then you have an article about apples and then you have an article about apple trees and then you have an article about orchards. Mm-hmm. and I think orchards has gone a little too far, you know, cuz that’s not really.
Related to apple pies anymore, you might be able to make me maybe make the, the leap that a certain type of or variety of apple is good for certain types of apple pie recipes. So maybe that’s where the tree would come in. But once you get into orchards and now you’re talking about like orange trees, peach trees hold on, way, way too far.
You lost the mark. You can kind of like, you can go too tight, but you can also go a little too wide. So you do wanna find that sweet spot. And for me, what actually does that is being conscious of my tear and does really kind of keep me within that sweet spot of I’m, I’m pretty well connected to, to what
Jared: I’m doing.
And, and you touched on it in the previous episode, so people who want to talk more about the tear the natural tear really should go back and listen to that. And I remember you talking about how you know when you can move. The next tier really is based on your, your website’s kind of total traffic now.
Lemme just drill in a bit on that. First off, do I have that correct? It is kind of a traffic type of metric that you bump tears up with.
Kyle: That’s right. Traffic or impressions? With within the article that I mentioned, there’s a good kind of starting chart. You’ll want to adjust that a as you work with it to kind of identify what the tiers are.
But tr clicks is the easiest way to understand
Jared: for sure. Do I ne So my secondary question to that, this is the question I had after we did the episode last time, then I got off and went and read the article and I was like, dang it. Where’s Kyle? I have one more question for him. So , here we are, one year later.
Just send me a message all the time. . I should’ve, you’re right. I should’ve sent you a message, but Okay. I’ll ask it for the whole world to hear. Is, does that need to be topically specific, the traffic that I get or is it website specific? Website
Kyle: specific? And that’s also something I found when I build out silos, which, which be, would be kinda like the, the other secret weapon.
Like if the h t o site map is a secret weapon that people overlook, the the silos would also be a secret weapon that people overlook when you’re siloing these things. It doesn’t have to be like, just whatever that target page, it just has to be website general. Okay. What you’re putting into the silo.
And so what I really try to do is I create pages that are supporting pages and they only live to support that target page. And that that is it. So they only link to each other and they only link to the target page. And that is all. I don’t care about the menu, the, the sidebar or the footer. This is just contextual links inside the content, and that’s the only links they have.
They’re like, well, can I link to another? No. Can I link to an external? No. Like there are good times to do that and there are things that you should create content on your site that does do that, but that’s not what this is. I’m creating these supporting pages so I can rank quickly. And I can start building my topical authority and I’m linking them together to link up to my target page so that as they get those clicks and impressions and ring for keywords, they build their own strength.
You kind of create this little engine of good where then they start to feed and give juice to each other and pass up more and more juice to your target page. It reduces your reliance on external
Jared: and, and, and to, to bring it all the way back. I mean, the idea here is cer, there’s other benefits, but in the context of what we’re talking about, we’re talking about eat and the a, the authority.
And this is basically kind of a, a, I don’t wanna say shortcut cuz that’s a dangerous word in this, in this world we live in, but it’s probably one of the fast track ways to gain authority in a certain topic, right? Like that’s kind of the value of what you’re, what you’re talking
Kyle: about here. And authoritative sites need fewer back.
Right. So if you’re doing this, if you’re setting it up where you’re going after these particular terms, you’re interlinking in this particular way, you will need fewer back links. You know, you are actually becoming the topical
Jared: authority. So a lot of times I hear authority being mentioned and again, it’s not, it’s not, we know like domain rating, Dr.
Da, these are third party metrics. But I, I hear authority being talked about mainly as like a strength of backlink profile. You haven’t really said links until just now. So your authority really looks at the value Google gives you by traffic for the topics you’re covering and links are play What role in that?
Kyle: The thing you’re, you’re a hundred percent right. I, I don’t think back links give you any kind of a authority really, other than they push you out of your tier. So let’s say, you know, you’re at a level three, that’s not really a number in, in this parlance, but let’s say you’re level three, you throw a bunch of back links and you get pushed up to level six, and then Google decides it doesn’t like those back links anymore.
So it takes ’em away. You didn’t get hit by an update. You got put back down where you belong because that, because that’s your authority level, you know, so like your DR or TF or, or whatever you are, whatever you like. Yeah, yeah. You know, was, was measuring the back links, but that’s, that’s a real risky investment in terms of like, you’re, if you’re gonna build that as your whole SEO strategy what I, what I think actual authority is, is what, like you launch a page for a particular keyword, Google trusts you without any SEO and ranks you immediately.
That’s, I, that’s what I think authority is.
Jared: So devil’s advocate then, where do links play a positive role in that environment or in that
Kyle: scenario? You will need to go after terms that are above your tier for sure. I mean, that’s not every term, you know, money terms are not gonna be in your tier to start off, you know, and, and you will need to have back links to make that happen.
Yep. There, there is a point where the sidewalk ends with OnPage for sure. And that’s where those links would come in. So the idea would be as you build those links, you’re also building out that supporting content that is naturally raising your tier. So cuz sites do get to a point that they don’t need back links anymore.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , that’s, that’s the ultimate goal. Now you have to have a huge site, you have to have a huge site for that, and you have to be around for a long time. But that is the ultimate goal where you have built up enough of this content that you’re beyond back links and sites get to that point.
Jared: Okay. Anything else on authority? I think that covers it.
Kyle: That covers the, the E, the A, the T and my two secret weapons. Oh, one thing I, one thing I would mention, if you’re like, oh, I’d like to like start putting myself into a style, it’s not there yet. Don’t change any internal links on your site.
Like if you change the internal links on your site and you’re gonna change how Google has factored the pages, how links are flowing, there’s a good chance you’re gonna drop. So don’t change any internal links. You can add two pages. You can kind of niche edit. Know your own pages, but don’t change any of your internal links and start fresh, you know, and build out.
Jared: talk about that, cuz that, that, that’s on my list of, I hope we get to it topics here. Let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s create that scenario where a website is ready to move on to the next topic. First off, like how do you know when a topic should be off limits for your topical silo? Your topical authority, right?
Like, I’m guessing that in the grander scheme of things when we’re talking about apple pies, there are natural next topics that make sense for that website that Google will go, we’ll give you a listen, right? We’ll, we’ll at least take a look. And then if you start talking about orange trees, that’s probably too far.
Or, or is it really, you could talk about apple pies and then move on to orange trees as long as you did all this right? Like h where, how do we process, what is the next topic to go into?
Kyle: that is a super hard thing to, to, to determine, you know, when is a topic exhausted and the idea is then we can move on to the next topic.
That’s a very tricky one and I don’t know that there’s a great answer there that is kind of playing more by feel. That’s fair. And then, then anything cuz how do you know it’s, it’s kind of one of those things like how long is a piece of string? Yeah,
Jared: yeah. What’s as long as you wanna be ? It’s but it, it does sound like you would say to maybe put off that decision until you’ve really fully built out the silo you’re on right now.
Kyle: sure. And, you know, you can definitely look at it like, are, you know, are we talking about trees just for the sake of trees now? Like, does it really get into anything that we really wanna talk about on apple pie? You know, so you can kind of, that’s where the judgment would be. Yeah. You can also kind of see it too, like if you look at like the related searches at the bottom of the search and you click and you kind of go over one adjacent and you click and you go over one adjacent and you click and go one adjacent.
You’ll see that they’re still kind of on track. So once you realize you’re kind of outside of those concepts, oh, and you’ve gone several over, then you can probably get a good feel that maybe we don’t, this isn’t an article or topical vertical
Jared: anymore. That’s a good litmus. That’s a good litmus test.
Yeah. I think there’s a tendency if you don’t stay laser sharp focused on your topic. Like there’s, we talked about shiny object syndrome earlier. Like you can just get to the bottom of a, of a, of a topic and just be a bit exhausted from it and maybe bounce to a different one too early. Sure. That’s true.
Okay. So we’ve been doing all this under the, the, the, the topic of E A T and the necessity for content websites, affiliate websites, probably specifically to have e A T and how you’ve seen, you said the vast majority is usually missing from affiliate websites. Do you think that this is How many of these do you need?
I guess, like, there’s a lot of boxes here. Obviously the goal is to get all of them checked. Do, like in your experience, do you, do you, do you need the vast majority of these or is there kind of a sloping gain that comes from doing each one
Kyle: Incrementally. You need ’em all. I think I, I wouldn’t take the risk of not doing one.
I think the address and local phone number and email addresses are the, the big three and then author pages. So look, those would be the big four for sure. Like if you really had to like pick and choose, I would make sure I’ve got those done. But the things that I listed, I think are ultimately pretty easy to do.
So it’s just more of like, Get the right plugin going, making sure that it’s, it’s doing what it’s supposed to do, and then you’re pretty much good to
Jared: go. Are there any other factors to e a t that maybe have less, you know, positive influences, but might be something that people can look at? Let’s say that people listen to this podcast they’ve go put their head down two days later, they’ve got it all cranked out and they’re saying, man, I, I love this e a t stuff.
What else can I do? What are other areas that maybe aren’t quite as essential, but that can also help over time with my e a t kind of score or perspective from Google,
Kyle: what you should totally do is go read the quality radars guidelines. They, they update every year. You can actually, some people do some analysis on what changed, look at what changed, and then the, the, the thought process, the rationale is like, why would they want to see that?
And then another way to look at it is like, what, in the real, what’s a real world thing that that would, that would replicate this? Where, what would this be in the real world? How can we then do that online? And that is just a really good exercise to go through and, and, and read those guidelines cuz it’ll, it’ll give you a pretty good feel of what, what they’re looking for, what they’re looking at, what should be on your site.
So that’s a very good exercise to go through. And then you’ll, they’ll probably find things that I didn’t cover and Right. And things that also probably are maybe specific to their niche or, or their type of
Jared: website. And they give a lot of examples there too. I mean, it’s not just Yeah. A boring long read.
It’s, it’s long. But there’s far more examples than I thought there would be when I first went over there. ,
Kyle: this is one of those things that kind of goes back to like, how many people have actually read Google’s guidelines. That’s only like 30 pages. Mm-hmm. and I would say 10% of all SEOs have actually ever read it.
You know, and then you gotta figure if that’s like 30 ish pages, you know, when you get into like this thing which is like 130 pages, you know, what, what do you got 2% of everybody’s credit. Well, remember it’s not the. What Ed you can get if you read it right.
Jared: Well, if that few people are actually reading it.
Now you have a, you have a past in law though, so that means you, you love reading. I have to assume. And you’re a fast
Kyle: singer. . I do have a way to read boring things. It’s one of my super skills. Yeah. . So like what’s my superpower? I can read boring things, but you know, there are cliff notes too. Like if you’re really, really stuck on it, there are cliff notes and at least, at least read those.
Jared: Okay. I have a couple more questions for you. I, I’d love to hear a little bit more about pop’s e a t like scoring system you talked about. Like, that was, that’s really intriguing. I didn’t know that. What, what is it and how does it work? Does it kind of spit a score out or is it, it, is it kind of framed around a lot of things you talked about.
Kyle: So what we do is we go through the qual quality rate guidelines. We pull out the ones that can be easily identified by a bot. And then what we do is we go through your competitors, say in the top 10 mm and we pick out how many have actually done that particular thing. So then you can see like, okay, all 10 have done this, all 10 have done that, eight have done this, and you can count down.
Only one is doing this one. And it’s kind of giving you the idea. It can kinda help you with an order of importance. You know, within our niche, these, these seem to be, because these sites have gone through several medic updates, they’re still there. So these are the things we might wanna focus on. And it goes through a few more things that I, than I listed here.
We’re actually updating it, I think this week. Next week we’re gonna add in a few more things from the most current quality Raiders guidelines. Additionally, we’re gonna give out some free credits on it too. Cause we want more people to use, especially the affiliates. So even if like they had a old account, you know, you can get in and actually use e and check
Jared: it out.
Okay. Well so you, you literally tease my next question, competitors. This is, it’s so common to see your website suffer in rankings and go to a competitor’s site that is ranking ahead of you. You know, they, they don’t check any or many of these boxes talk about that. They’re
Kyle: cheating. They’re cheating to like
Yeah, exactly. Maybe, but yeah, I mean, what, what, what do, what do we do with that? Do we just put our head down and keep focusing? Why are they ranking higher than us? I mean, it’s a, it’s a very big question that can’t be answered without a specific scenario, but maybe what are some of the things that could be contributing
Kyle: to that?
Usually what I find is those sites are a lot bigger. They, they’re a lot bigger in one sense. And the other thing is there’s inertia. You know, a site that has been ranking number one will continue to rank number one longer than it won’t. So if like somebody beats you to the punch and they’ve been there for a couple years, it’s likely that they’re locked in and it’s gonna take a long time to refactor their, their pages to get them to drop.
Hmm. So the size of their site and the time that they’ve been in that ranking position might be p playing very large factors. Ah, that’s a good point.
Jared: Okay. Yeah, that, that’s, that’s true. Once something gets number one it is, it is seated. Yeah. Let’s maybe start to bring this thing to a close. We started talking about e a t and its importance in gaining rankings, but also its importance in recovery.
And you were doing a lot of recovery audits. I I, I think obviously we have here, and you, you already said, Hey, do this stuff to recover. It’s just as important in recovery as it is to gain rankings. But I would love to hear more insights from you , on what people can do to recover. Because it’s been a, I mean, we’re recording this at the end of 2022.
It’ll come out, I’m guessing early 2023, but, you know, the roadmap probably won’t be changing that much for Google. They’ve released a lot of updates in 2022 and a lot of different kinds of updates. We’ve got core updates, which have been around for a while, but we also have product review updates that affect affiliate marketers.
We have this new helpful content update that people are still seeing how that plays out in, in, in bras tack. And then we have these spam updates, so, That’s a lot of updates and I’d love to get any outside insights beyond eat in terms of recovery for affiliate marketers or content creators that might have gotten wrapped up and hit one of those.
Kyle: Sure. It’s important to understand that sites that rank for more keywords perform better. They also recover faster and they can absorb more toxicity. If you and I have the exact same size site, it has 2000 pages and we have the exact same backlink profile but you rank for 20,000 keywords and I rank for 2000 keywords.
If we launched the same page, you’re gonna outrank me. At the same time. If we both get hit by some nasty negative SEO campaign, you are likely to survive. At the same time, if we both decide to do black hat techniques on something, you are likely to to do very, very well, and I’m likely to get penalized. So I think.
It’s imperative to continue to focus, to try to rank for more keywords. Mm-hmm. . Now that’s part of the, the, the authority part, you know, of, of this. But it’s also, I think, just a good rule for anyone that’s building their site. Anybody that might have been slapped they think they’ve been hit by something.
Try to build out these pages. Two, start to rank for more keywords and then that’s kind of a, a big first road to recovery. You can also see, like if you’re just gonna be in jail for a long time, where if you know you launch something, it should totally be in your tier and you’re just not ranking. It might be time to take a break from that side for a little bit like let, let it settle and cause you might just be splitting your wheels and, and nothing you’re gonna do at this moment’s gonna help you
Is most recovery are you seen happen in subsequent updates or does it start to happen in between an.
Kyle: You do start to see movement, which is an, which is an encouragement, right? That you can see it, but then you don’t really see things like actually recover and come back until it appears. There might have been another refactoring, which was probably tied to a, a similar update.
Jared: Should I be looking like if I, if I put my head down and start really knuckling down on this kind of stuff, building out e a t you know, getting better topical silos built actually going after keywords that are in my tier. If I start doing this stuff and I’m producing content, I’m actually doing all of it.
Should I be looking in GSC for, you know, an increase in impressions higher crawl rate? Like are these actual signals or is it No, no, it’s all just wait until the update comes around.
Kyle: There are two things you, you’ll probably likely see. One is that you will gain keywords. You can actually monitor how many keywords your sites are ranking for and, and your pages in particular pages that are healthy should be gaining keywords and they should be growing.
That will result in an impre increase in impressions. But the interesting thing is you’ll often see a decrease in clickthrough As you rank for more keywords? Yeah. They’re ranking lower. So your click through rate will drop. It freaks out. It freaks people out. You’ll see a drop in CTR and you’ll see a drop in ranking position.
Like, but you’re gaining impressions. And if you’re gaining impressions, that’s a really good sign. Oh, it just means those terms are, are lower and, and they, they’re taking time to move their way up. But you’re, as long as your impressions are going up, you’re in a good spot.
Jared: Right. If you go from a hundred keywords on a page to 200, most likely those new a hundred keywords are gonna be in spots 80 and spots 90.
And that means that they’re not gonna get clicked on much cuz no one clicks on anything there, but they will show up. Okay. That’s great. That’s good. Okay. So impressions are really important into our keywords. For sure. For sure, for
Jared: That was that was a good. Lesson e , .
Kyle: I hope I provide some clarity and direction.
Jared: That’s all I need. Well, you have to nail the head. I mean to kind of sum, start to bring it back home and summarize like affiliate marketers particularly really do struggle with this topic of expertise. Authority and trustworthiness. And a lot of it does go around the fact that a lot of affiliate marketers, they’re not doctors, they’re not lawyers they don’t necessarily have a lot of experience as a practitioner in their field.
Whether it’s something they went into because they saw SEO value in it or it’s something they went into cuz they have a passion for it. A lot of times, passions don’t have degrees that come along with it. And there’s a lot of myths floating around, right? Like, do I need to go rent a doctor for my website or borrow the guy who won the largest cow at the state fair to be on my you know, my, my my site or whatever.
And so I really like how you’ve added so much. Like this is really a tactile one. It’s not like a an ethereal interview about e a t, like this is where really tactile approach people can take for their, their affiliate
Kyle: website. Yeah. Yeah. And I think honestly, the more you do, they’ll, the less likely you already get hit.
So I would jump on as much as you can as soon as you can. .
Jared: So let’s see. Where can people follow along? I, I’m sure at this point a lot of people will you know, be attuned to to your work and, and, and senior work. But where’s the best place people can go? Follow along with what you’re doing? You
Kyle: can go to kyle roof.com.
That’s the easiest one. All my stuff is there. Their links to like Page Optimizer Pro, they’re links to img, links to the agency, stuff like that. That’s all right there. Okay. Kyle, you, when this goes live, people will be able to, to watch this interview from there as well. We, they can click and go right in.
We’ll get that in
Jared: there. And, and like you said, it’s not, this isn’t you know, we’re, we’re, for those of you don’t know, we prerecord these . So this your your e updates in pop in page optimizer Pro will, will undoubtedly be live by then.
Kyle: Yeah. And, and actually the, the free credits for Eat and nlp Google’s NLP API will be in there as well.
So Good. By the time people are watching this, they’ll be able to get some free looks at it and see if it’s something that’s for them.
Jared: Well, Kyle, thank you. Again, don’t know if this is number three or number four or whatever it is, but you’re always a treat to have on you always provide a ton of value.
Your previous episodes have been some of the most popular ones, and so thank you again for bringing so much great knowledge today.
Kyle: Oh, I love being here. Thanks for having me. I really do appreciate it. All right,
Jared: well, until we, I say this at the end until we talk again, but I’m sure we will talk again on the podcast, so Sounds good.
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